Right on Nick - I totally agree.

I think I pretty much agree with this one... I mean I'm not overly-concerned with modesty, but I just don't buy clothes that I think reveal too much. They usually don't interest me. I don't think there's anything wrong with dressing in style, as long as your clothes are decent. I mean we do have to live in today's world... you can't go around wearing ankle length dresses all the time. But I agree... you also need to make sure what you wear is appropriate and if you dress like a slut, you're going to get the same respect a slut does.

I think this subject has a lot of the same problems that dancing does. Especially where girls are concerned. Because what we wear reflects on who we are and what we want. If you wear form fitting clothing with a low kneckline don't be suprised when some guy makes a comment about "you".

 There are a lot of people who don't wouldn't wear short shorts around town, but yet they'll wear them to play volleyball. Thats contradicting yourself and honestly not making you look very good. It hard to trust someone who doesn't keep the same standards for themselves. Because no matter what you think you "have" to wear for the sport you participate in, it still comes back...are you dressing in a way that reflects on Christianity? Why do you think so many guys are intrested in girls volleyball? Girls, its not because your spike is so awesome that they want to watch and learn your skills. I hear comments from guys all the time about a "hot" volleyball player or w/e. There are a lot of sports that girls play were they "have" to wear certain things to play in that sport. I have news for y'all....most the time it is possible for you to be able to wear modest clothing and still participate in the sport. I've seen it done. Basketball, volleyball, cheerleading (there is more then just immodesty there), softball, and really just any sport. Especially right now with the olympics going on ice skating is a big sport. Do you think just because they are on the ice it is okay for them to wear things that show every crease and curve of their body? You think go says, well its not okay to dress like a slut if you're in town...but if you're parading yourself on the ice then thats okay. lol I'm thinkin no.

Let's not contradict ourselves and say that it is okay to dress immodestly in some instances. Just my 2 cents because I was just thinkin about all the convos I've had with girls who claimed that it was a necessity to be modoest but went on to volleyball...anyway...lata y'all

Rachael (crescendo_of_ambiguity),
It sounds like you are saying that we can wear something immodest just because todays society has adapted it as "okay". That's how I read it... Anyways, a little question for you if that is what you think; and if it's not, please explain what you meant.

Suppose I had a wife... We visit a native tribe and stayed in their village where the women walk around naked, and the men only wear a loincloth. Should I allow my wife to walk around naked and should I only wear a loincloth just because that society has accepted it to be normal?
I think that proves my point...

We can't wear things just because todays society says that it is okay; We must still dress modestly.

Nicholas

Reagan (Urchin03),
I would have to agree with you on that.

I myself play volleyball (or used to, atleast) alot. It's a really enjoyable sport, and you do not have to dress immodestly to play it.
The same with any other sport... You can dress properly and still play it. Sure, you may stick out in the crowd, but you are still having fun and not sinning while doing it.

If doing certain things requires you to sin by dressing immodestly, you really just need to ask yourself: "Do I want this more than I want Heaven?"
It doesn't matter if it is considered a sport, an art, a tradition, or whatever... Immodesty is immodesty and there is no excuse for dressing in an immodest way. You can dress in a modest way and still be able to do anything that someone who dresses immodestly is doing. You may not do it as great if you dress properly, but atleast you know that you will not go to hell because of that choice. The person that dresses immodestly has to answer for their choice.

Use wise judgment.

Nicholas

Nicholas,  this is a great topic.  I think young people need to realize that they can be valuable people on the merit of their character, and not how much flesh they reveal. Also, too often teaching in the church on modesty is abent, or is so vague, that oftentimes individuals come away totally missing it. Check out this article.  It's quite to the point. http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/bellyButtonRings.htm  Thanks again for the great topic.

Mrs. Joy (Joyshomeschool),
Thanks for the article!

Everyone should read it: http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/bellyButtonRings.htm

Nicholas

Igndkllr,

   Out of curiosity what makes you think that the men in the society where it is okay to walk around naked don't have impure thoughts about the women? In today society girls walk around with hip huggers, tight low cut and short in length shirts...and ya guys are used to seeing it. But does that change the way a guy responds to it? No way. Just because in a society it is accepted for the women to be naked doesn't mean the men are homosexuals. Guys are sexually stimulated by sight. What person have you ever heard of that has been into so much porn that when they see a naked person they don't have sexual thoughts. None...that’s why it is an addiction. It doesn't get old to that person. The person committing the sin of pornography accepts it...he is used to seeing it...but does that change what he thinks every time he sees an undressed model?

Yes, it goes for guys and girls. Guys do have a problem with immodest. The utmost being pants that hang below the behind and wearing no shirts or shirts that yet still reveal parts of their body that God does not intend to be uncovered. I would guess the reason why Nick would hit hard for the girls (of which I am one) is because of the fact that we have the worse problem. While both is just as wrong, you're going to see more tight/short stuff on girls then you are immodesty on guys. Just think about this fact, can you picture Christ wearing a pair of shorts that say "Defense" on the back? Or anything for that matter. There is no need to be drawing attention to that area of your body. Guys, girls notice...girls comment...so don't be drawing attention...please! Also, keep your shirts on! If a girl wants you because you "look good" without a shirt, then the girl probably has problems anyway. Not the type of girl you SHOULD be looking for. So do a mirror check. Guys..keep the pants up and top covered. Girls, turn side ways..do you see a deffined shape? If so it's best you change the shirt. Check your pants..again..shape? Can you even grab any slack in your pants?! Take a finger and push directly in the middle of your chest...if your shirt springs forward like a spring turn around, get another shirt, and try again.

 Why is this a big deal? Because not only does it reflect on us, but also you may in the process cause someone to lust. Which is a sin...causing someone to stumble makes you just as guilty as the person who sinned in the first place. While there are some perverts who might lust over a potato sack, that doesn't change the fact that we need to do as much as possible to HELP those around us. Not help them want us.

 Just coming from a girl who cares.

Reagan (Urchin03),
Yet again, I fully agree with you.

Just to clear things up... My post was not directed to either sex in particular but to both sexes. Immodesty does apply more to the female sex, but in general it applies to both the male and female sex.

Nicholas

urchin. first i want to say that as far as i am concerned this is a good natured debate not a "big deal" so dont take what i am about to say personally. i dont know either you or nick i dont know ur ages and i dont know the lives u have led so correct me if i am wrong.but alot of what u say seems to come from just not expeirenceing life very long. that may be why i come off the way i do sometimes/ making a "big deal". i myself am young but i have lived a million years. and learned alot of things. i have seen the best of both worlds. meaning i was very heavily involved in church i was active in youth as well as tech departments i would spend about 60 hours a week in the church office in the summer working on camps and such. i have expeirenced the world both the good and bad. u name it i have done it. i have also felt the wrath of a church that was totally misdirected. i do not mind talking about all of this but i dont want to on a public post if u wish ti aim me and we can talk (spaseqt im on at night after 9) i feel that sometimes christians look at the world and all they see are the sin. u cannot judge or know what is in another mans heart or head. yes guys are visially stimulated. that is like a major duh. from the moment u were born u were clothed i assume. i assume that from the time that u were old enough to comprehend that ur parents tought u to wear underwear and pants and shirts and such. but some ppl were not tought that. for generations this is what they do. and even ppl that are not in that culture feel more "free" without clothes. now dont make the mistake to think that i think that this is ok but i do feel that u nor me nor anybody have the right to judge what is in the minds and hearts. until u have lived that life( by you i mean anybody) you are not quilified to speculate what that life will make you think. as far as girls wearing to little clothes idk. personnally the only girl i notice is my lovely girlfriend (dont go thinking i like her for her beauty only). i dont even notice other chicks. anyway my thoughts holla back dog

Igndkllr,  I also agree as to what you said about the "friendly debate".

It does seem odd to me though...that you say we can not judge a mans heart. I totally agree with you there...but you go on to say how you "assume" certain things. Assuming I don't know the background of the cultures...lived in the..etc. As you said, you don't know what I have or have not done within my life time. I haven't lived the "good and bad" as you called it. I've seen it none the less. I've spoken with those who have done it...but what does that change? It's still good and bad...right and wrong. Whether I've lived it or not...what is right does not change. The truth it the truth. God said to be modest and it is further defined in different sections of the Bible. If we can find what God meant when He said to be modest then what difference does it make if the culture accepts you wearing less then what God has commanded we wear. In today’s society in America a lot of sins are accepted...but does that mean that God is okay with us committing the sins...since after all...they are accepted by the nation? Certainly not.

 Going back to the culture aspect...why would I make such a strong "assumption"? Well, let us look at it in terms of what you have said. You're speaking of the cultures being raised naked...therefore knowing nothing other then that which they have been raised in. They accept the nude as we accept wearing clothing. But the fact of the matter is...it doesn't make a difference.

 There is a story of a man and woman who lived in a cave. They would slaughter men and steal that which they had. So that they might be able to eat their food and have their clothes etc. But as this man and woman had kids...they weren't sure how they where going to supply food for their children. So they decided they would just feed their children the flesh of those whom they killed. These children where raised as cannibals. All their life they knew nothing other than this. It was a way of life for them. They never thought anything of it...because it's what they where raised to understand. But does that make their cannibalism any less wrong? Does it make their murdering any less wrong? Most certainly not! Just because someone is raised to believe something is right, does not mean that its okay for them to believe it. If that where the case...there would be no purpose for the Bible.

R.K.O. (lgndkllr),
Some traditions are not acceptable to God; This being one of them.

We are taught that traditions of men can be wrong.
Mark 7:7-9 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

We are warned about the "vain deceit" of the traditions of men
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Nudity/immodesty is a vain tradition, and it should not be followed.
Exodus 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:

Nicholas

ok urchin that was quite possibly the best analigy i have ever heard. very well put together. nick my man. i hate to say it but the king james version is not my forte. maby i missed it but that first vers u gave seemed to have nothing to do with anything we were talking about. all i got out of it was do not wash dishes. lol. my question is this. where in the bible (like what is the verse) does it define modest clothes. i.e. girls no skirts that are shorter that x in. now i know the bible doesnt say anything like that but just as a general example. i know that the bible says that we should set an example (i'm not sure if this post is directed towards born again believers or everybody else) but the bible also says that as men that if we lust after a woman in our head it is the same as if we he had comitted adultry. so wouldnt that put the responsabilty of controlling your thoughts to the person who is looking at other ppl. and what about how times change. not so long ago girls werent allowed to were pants. only ones who did were the ones ur momma warned u about. were they sinning. i dont think so. but according to everybody else the were "immodest" the bible does not say that is wrong to wear form fitting clothing. it says cunduct urself in a godly manner. and to anser a question earlier. i will be totally honest. idk if jesus would wear gym shorts that say defense on the butt end. they are not "bad" pants actually it wouldnt surprise me. jesus walks out in a robe in the middle of the desert " yo dude what up hey we gonna play some ball or what"  lol

Nicholas

Forgive me, I'm short on time so I have to make this quick. I just want to commend you for this xanga and the work that you are doing for Christ and The Kingdom. I've been preaching and pounding this same subject for the last few years and nobody seems to want to listen to a 17 year old "fire and brimestone untactical preacher" so I've been labeled by some of my brethren. At the congergation I formerly worshiped, there was an elder whos grand-daughter was envolved in things such as cheerleading, Proms and dances, and things of the sort. She was constantly bringing pictures of her and her friends dressed in an immodest manner to the church building and passing them around for all to see. I had a meeting with the elders and sat there staring them in the face, especially her grandfather, informing them that this was going on and that it was dangerously unscriptural. The response I got from them was all in all nothing, becasue they never did anything. Her grandfather looked at me in the eye and told me that he admired my efforts but that she was his grand daughter and it would be of no use for him to say anythign to her because she wouldnt listen. Anyway to make a long story short when we left the congergation, her and her mother told good friends of mine that they were glad we left becasue they were tired of my "condeming them to hell and butting into others business". Anyway enough of my rambling. As I said I appreciate you and what your doing. And, since you have no clue as to who I am, I learned of you through Reagan Kidwell. Dont ask her about me though I'm sure she thinks I'm Scum lol

What exactly is the purpose of this Xanga? It appears that the purpose is to point fingers and condemn. Not one of these updates is uplifting or positive. Seems kind of pharisaical if you ask me. Perhaps you should try and balance it out a bit...

Hey I've been away all weekend Nicholas... sorry it took me so long to respond.

No I didn't mean that because it's in style, it's ok to wear it, I just meant you can dress in style and be decent at the same time.

I would never judge anyone who wants to dress like they're from the 1800's, but you have to look like your a part of this time period or you can't be effective within it. Now ok, I don't mean you have to walk around in belly shirts, but it's ok to look like you are living in this century. Alot of homeschooled girls still walk around in dresses all the time... lol that would drive me insane. Be in the world, but not of the world... living 100 years ago isnt being in the world. All I meant was I know enough about the world to know if you look liek a freak, people will not listen to you. You can throw around any Bible verse you want, but it's a fact. To be effective, you have to see all people as equals and you also have have to make an effort to relate to them. Relating is harder when they are in jeans from hollister and you're in a pioneer dress. That's all I was saying because I know the homeschool world really has issues there.

When it comes to "immodest" clothing for sports or art forms... I mean yea soem things are over the top, but ecsepcially when it comes to art, I don't see many problems. Quite honestly if you do, it's because you aren't very cultured. Not trying to be mean, but anyone who sits in a ballet and thinks it's immodest, has no respect for the gift of art.

*like

*some

*ecsepcially

I should have edited before I submitted it.

CompleteInanity,

The purpose of the xanga is to inform...and to anyone who is striving to be the best Christian they can be then it's going to be uplifting because sometimes there are things that we don't think about as being wrong or realise is wrong until someone else brings it up. For the rest of the time, it just pushes us more to research what we believe to make sure it matches that which is seen in the Word of God.

Btw - I don't think you understand the word pharisaical....because that deff doesn't describe the convos that are taking place here...

crescendo_of_ambiguity,

   I do understand what you are saying about the people who constantly walk in dresses...but at the same time it isn't wrong for them to wear dresses all the time. I'm not saying you where suggesting that...I'm just saying that so that no one else gets the wrong idea.

   On the other hand I don't know that I agree with you where art is concerned.  How is it that when you're doing art it's okay to wear some things, but if you're not participating in art then it isn't okay. Just because you're involved in an art does not make what you're doing okay. There are lots of people who pose/paint nude pictures...but does that make it okay since it's art? Should I respect this and just realise that its as you stated and I'm just not cultured enough to understand this? Being cultured has nothing to do with what is or is not okay in God's eyes. If God says be modest then he means be modest no matter what. Just because you are doing something for art or a sport does not make it any more right then if you're just doing it to do it. I'll deal more with the deffinition of modest in my next post....

  Also, I was talking to a guy about these discussions and he said, "How many guys do you know that watch ballet because they respect the art? Or dancing for that matter?"

Igndkllr,

In your last message you asked the question of how can we know what is too short? What example do we see in the Bible? Well to help further explain this I would like to use the example of Adam and Eve. I realise that Nick already went into this, but I would like to go into further detail with it.

In Genesis we read the account of something that has been called "Temptation and the Fall of Man".  In chapter three we see the devil tempting Eve to partake of the tree which God has already warned them not to eat. After further conversation the devil persuades both Adam and Eve to partake of this tree. After doing so their eyes where opened and they realised that they where naked. Now why would they realise just from eating some fruit that they where naked? Well if you look back at Genesis 2:17 you'll see that God reffers to the tree as, "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." By partaking of this fruit they now contain the knowledge to know the difference between right and wrong.

In seeing that they where naked, they made themselves "coverings" (v.7). Covering...means to cover something up right? So obviously they knew there where certain parts of their body that they needed to cover up. In verse eight and nine we read that Adam and Eve hear the sound of God walking thru the garden..so what do they do? Well they've made coverings for themselves so they just go talk to God..cause after all...they where covered right? Wrong, they hid. Obviously they felt that they weren't properly covered. According to verse 21 God agreed because He went on to make what was called a "tunic" for them. The deffinition of tunic is: A loose fitting garment, sleeved or sleeveless, extending to knees and worn by men and women. So here we see the first ever set example of modest. How did God clothe the first man and woman? With a loose fitting garment that extended to the knees.

Also, in giving instructions to the Priests they where given specific instructions on what to wear under their garments. In Exodus we read about the conditions of these undergarments. Exodus 28:42 says, "And you shall make for them linen trousers to cover their nakedness;" okay...well what is nakedness? That doesn't seem to help does it? Well that isn't the end of the verse, "they shall reach from the waist to the thighs."  When the preists walked up the ramps to make the sacrifices, there would be people standing around...therefore possibly being able to see up their garments. So in order to help prevent their nakedness from being show they wore these "shorts/trousers". So in our second example we are seeing that these shorts (to cover the lower half) where to cover from the waist to the thighs. So still we are covering the sae areas of the body.

 In Isaiah 47 they're speeking of a scene when some women where running from other people (honestly can't remember exactly what was happening at the time) and they had to cross some water. In verse 2 we read, "...Take off your skirt, uncover the thigh, pass through the waters." Okay, so you may be thinking...big deal their thigh was seen...what does that mean to me? Well you must read on to verse 3, "Your nakedness shall be uncovered, Yes, your shame will be see;" Again area of the thigh is reffered to as nakedness. So here we have two instances where people of God where told to cover this area: from the shoulders to around the knee. In the other instance we have spoken of someones nakedness...and that was what area? The thigh. Three examples...

As girls, we're to stay away from the appearance of a harlot (Proverbs 7:10). Guys are told to stay away from girls who are as harlots (Proverbs 7:24&25). It says that "Her house is the way to hell..." (Proverbs 7:27)

Why then would I make the suggestion that tight clothing is wrong? Because, if we're wearing tight clothing...then there isn't a large difference between our skin and what we're wearing. Either way you're going to see the shape of the persons body...correct? Which is what leads to the sexual thoughts. The only difference between tight clothing and your skin is the color. Yes, Matthew 5:28 does say, "Whoever looks to her to lust in his heart commits adultery." But at the same time we're told not to commit an offense (causing another to sin). While we cannot force someone to sin, we can help them sin. We must try as hard as we can to stay away from any appearance that may lead others to sin.

Some think that no one will sin at their tight clothing...or sport or "art" for that matter. But we must be careful. "..., but woe to him through whom the [offense] do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

To act in a way that would help someone to sin is just as wrong as commiting the sin yourself.

"Times change" You're right in saying this...but God's word doesn't. In the times that girls where not to wear pants, it would not have been a sin for them to wear them. But because of the customs they where to wear dresses if they where gonna be respected by others. The fact of the matter is that in just wearing dresses they did not go against God's word. But where keeping their respect in the community...in todays world however, the fad is for girls to practically wear nothing. This DOES go against God's law. You don't have to wear belly shirts and hip huggers to have people listen to you. I don't wear that stuff...and yet amazingly I still have friends outside the body of Christ who repect me and don't really care that I don't wear that stuff.  But the fact of the matter is if I go with the flow and the "change of times" then I will go against God's law of modesty. It's not wrong to be in agreement with people of the world...as long as their not going against what God says. Which in this instance...it does. 

That's all for now...I've gotta get some sleep or else I'm gonna be really tired durring the lectureship tomorrow. Gnight! Hope this was of some profit to you and your studies! - Reagan

Urchin... I mean I think it's fine to dress extremely conservative all the time, I would never judge anyone who did. I'm just saying that because I choose to dress "in style" (well really in my own style) doesn't mean my clothes are necesarrily immodest. That's all I meant.

Now ok. Not many guys come and watch ballet because they respect art. In fact, not many guys come and watch ballet at all. I'm a dancer. I've been in the ballet world my whole life. Maybe some guys come to watch ballet to feed their lusts, but I really don't know why. They could just go to the mall and do that so much easier. Now I'll admit some more modern ballet's are risque. I mean comon, The Cage? Lol. So I'll admit to that. But Swan Lake? Giselle? Don Quixote? I mean comon. Lol even with Romeo and Juliet and La Bayadere, I doubt too many guys are going to say Oh yes let's go watch those hot ballerinas! Lol. The really artsy guys I know have no interest in watching ballet for the girls ( in fact alot of them prefer guys, lol.) I mean my boyfriend has come to several of my ballets and he comes to see me dance, not to see me tights. The thing is, if you haven't been in the ballet world, you can't understand it. You can't understand what dancing feels like and you can't understand the mindset of the people watching it. It's beautiful. It's art in one of it's purest forms. Culture has a great deal to do with it and I know this because I am both a Christian and an artist. Do I believe Jesus would sit in a ballet? Yes I do. I think he would recognize the beauty, talent, and effort put into it and I think he would see it that way. That is the way it's intended. If any guy has lusted after me in the audience of my performances, than honestly that is his problem not mine.

I mean, how many guys do you know that fantasize about girls in tutus? Lol. Not many. I recommend you go to a couple of ballets. REAL ballets. Like we're talking ABT or Joffrey here. When you know more about that form of art, then we'll talk.

And no I don't think painting nude women is right. I also don't think dancing nude is right. But I'm not dancing nude and I've never seen anyone who has.

Brandon (CompleteInanity),
The point of this Xanga is to teach the truth. That means I must speak where the Bible speaks, and be silent where the Bible is silent.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have given Biblical reference for each of my articles to prove my points.
Do not be so quick to condemn my teachings when I have so clearly used the Bible as my source; the Bible is doing the teaching here. I'm just putting the Biblical facts together and posting them on the internet for everyones benefit.

Nicholas

Rachael (crescendo_of_ambiguity),
Your argument can't hold true even with the analogy you have given.

Immodesty is immodesty no matter how you look at it.
Anything can be art... Why is being nude when posing for the art of pornography is wrong, but being immodest when dancing for the art of ballet is right? They are both wrong, despite the fact that they are art; they both require beauty, talent, and effort.
Pole dancing is also an art; it requires beauty, talent, and effort.
I could go on, but you need to understand that dressing improperly is wrong no matter what reason you do it for.

Some people make "getting high" into a contest -- who can last the longest?
Is this okay just because it's a contest? Ballet is the same way.

For some people, murder is an art -- have you ever seen the movie "Cabin by the Lake"?
Is this okay just because it is an art? Ballet is the same way.

Thievery is an art and/or contest to some criminals -- some criminals have to "leave their mark", and some just keep count.
Is this okay just because they do it as an art and/or contest? Ballet is the same way.

I know enough about art to know the difference between the good forms of art from the evil forms of art.
Ballet, clearly, is a evil form of art.

Nicholas

Nicholas honestly, that is one of the most judgemental things I've ever heard you say. Ballet is not immodest and you would know that if you've ever been to one. Yes you can say anything is art, but few things truly are. Ballet is one of them and it's not some new form of deranged "art". It's been around for centuries and it was created for a very different purpose than pole dancing or getting high. Good lord, I don't know where you got that. You have never even been to the ballet, much less ABT, Joffrey, Ncyb, Boston, or Kirov. You can't judge what you don't know a thing about.
You could call sex an art if you wanted to, it takes beauty,talent, and a whole lot of effort. But it isn't, it just isn't.
You can't understand this and it really is too bad. You're missing out on one of the most beautiful gifts God has given us.
The clothes we wear aren't immodest. How can you call a tutu and pointe shoes immodest? Lol. No offense, but that really is absurd. If you understand the lines of ballet like croise and efface and even if you understood things like arabesque, you would understand what the lines are supposed to create. It certainly isn't about shaking your butt. That's what hip hop is for.

Anyways I'm not debating this because no offense, but I know more about it than anyone commenting so far. I may not know much about anything, but I do know a beautiful dancer when I see one.

I saw a guy the other night dancing dressed in tights(amoung other things). Was I looking at that? No. I was looking at his INCREDIBLE feet. I'm still reeling from looking at them. He was the definition of ballet. Beauty. Pure beauty.
And God gave us that gift for a reason. If you dont think it's a gift you come take a class with me sometimes. See what it takes...

Also lgndkllr kinda has a good point. What is "immodest"? Urchin, you made some very good points too , but you used OT law which we don't follow anymore. I mean if you follow that, you should follow the others. And you aren't Jewish, so I know you don't. The Adam and Eve one was good, but I mean basically you're saying don't wear tights clothes and cover the parts of your body that could really be lusted after.

You and Nicholas make some very good points about some things.. but you are also very legalistic and Completelnanity was right... you tend to be alot like the Pharisees sometimes. Yes you should preach the truth.... but in LOVE. Otherwise the truth is void. Read Corinthians 13.